11-17-2015, 02:37 PM
Here's a discussion we had yesterday on the Skype chat, regarding usage of CAS in missions from the gameplay and mission making perspective. I think you can find it helpful in case you are considering if and how to incorporate CAS assets in your mission, especially in the aspect of keeping the chopper team in the action but not taking too much of it from the ground team. Posted with the participants' permission.
[16/11/2015 17:51:48] Variable: jeez last night games were A W E S O M E
[16/11/2015 17:52:22] Alwarren: First mission I died within five minues -_-
Second mission TBH, I was a bit underwhelmed. It was okay.
Third mission, I really liked
[16/11/2015 17:52:40] Alwarren: Etzu beat me to the Hind gunner seat -_-
[16/11/2015 17:53:23] Variable: oh, yeah, I had fun because I got to pilot the Hind and seen a lot of action
[16/11/2015 17:53:51] Alwarren: Yeah... I hardly fired a shot, and I lugged the RPG-7 around for the whole time and never got to shoot it.
[16/11/2015 17:54:47] Variable: sorry :/
[16/11/2015 17:55:10] Alwarren: Why sorry, wasn't your fault
[16/11/2015 17:55:24] Variable: It was, I took all your potential targets
[16/11/2015 17:56:08] Alwarren: That's inherent. There wasn't really much danger for the Hind, so most of the time, the infantry had nothing to do. It's also a matter of how you lead such a mission.
[16/11/2015 17:57:20] Variable: Outlawz lead it like it should in real life, and that means minimizing risk to the ground force
[16/11/2015 17:57:35] Variable: and that makes for a boring experience...
[16/11/2015 17:57:39] Alwarren: Yeah of course. It also means that the ground forces were mostly bored.
[16/11/2015 17:58:16] Variable: that's what I said
[16/11/2015 17:58:28] Alwarren: I was already typing when I read your reply
[16/11/2015 17:59:19] Alwarren: I'm always skeptical with adding chopper support unless there is something that can take down the chopper easily
[16/11/2015 18:00:51] Variable: chopper support need to be mitigated with lots of infantry targets in buildings
[16/11/2015 18:00:58] Variable: helicopters can't do much about that
[16/11/2015 18:01:22] Alwarren: Yeah, or with a real danger to the chopper that the infantry needs to clear.
[16/11/2015 18:01:45] Alwarren: Mission balancing is really hard
[16/11/2015 18:01:48 | Edited 18:01:55] Variable: yeah, but then you have the pilots waiting
[16/11/2015 18:02:20] Alwarren: Well the pilots will be waiting either way. If you have stuff in the buildings, they can't really do anything either
[16/11/2015 18:02:47] Doveman: I guess you can have an unarmed chopper for transport and recon (like a big UAV!), then you don't need to have lots of threats against it and it can't kill all the enemy and make things boring for the ground troops.
[16/11/2015 18:03:14] Variable: Well the pilots will be waiting either way, but if you have stuff in the buildings, the pilots can kill armor that is trying to stop the infantry team from clearing those buildings.
[16/11/2015 18:03:49] Alwarren: Well that always depends on the scenario.
[16/11/2015 18:04:16] Variable: It can be a lot of other challenges, not necesarily armor
[16/11/2015 18:04:32] Doveman: If you remove the gun ammo and only give the chopper a few rockets/missiles to take out armour then it prevents it killing all the infantry.
[16/11/2015 18:05:23] Variable: if any, I'd do the opposite. remove missiles and leave the chin gun, more challenging, and can hold longer
[16/11/2015 18:06:00] Doveman: that's not much use against armour though is it? and it means the chopper can kill all the infantry.
[16/11/2015 18:06:59] Variable: it doesn't have to be armor, it can be trucks or MRAPs
[16/11/2015 18:07:03] Variable: or other choppers
[16/11/2015 18:07:06] Variable: or UAVs
[16/11/2015 18:09:45] Doveman: yeah, it's just that if the chopper has the gun and it spots infantry it's bound to shoot them, particularly if it thinks they're a threat to the ground troops, which then makes life boring for the ground troops. Obviously you can tell the gunner not to shoot at infantry but it's hard to avoid that if he thinks the ground troops are at risk of being killed.
[16/11/2015 18:10:19] Alwarren: TBH, I think limiting the ammo of a chopper works only if there is a resource shortage.
[16/11/2015 18:10:36] Alwarren: Other than that, why would a chopper even take off with only a minimal weapon load
[16/11/2015 18:10:37] Variable: sure, I thought we were still on the subject of infantry targets inside buildings
[16/11/2015 18:10:41] Phantom: [Monday, November 16, 2015 17:57] Alwarren:
<<< Yeah of course. It also means that the ground forces were mostly bored.should make more phantom missions where the ground forces don't get bored.... but murdered
[16/11/2015 18:10:47] Doveman: lol
[16/11/2015 18:10:48] Alwarren:
[16/11/2015 18:11:15] Variable: [Monday, November 16, 2015 17:57] Alwarren: Other than that, why would a chopper even take off with only a minimal weapon load
<<< routed from another mission
[16/11/2015 18:11:39] Variable: like in Red Storm Rising, the Eagles that strafe that big ass ship
[16/11/2015 18:11:47] Variable: with their 20mm cannons
[16/11/2015 18:12:13] Alwarren: Well yeah, that works once or twice, but you can't do that in every mission that includes a chopper.
[16/11/2015 18:12:40] Variable: yeah, I'd deplete the ammo by providing a target rich environment
[16/11/2015 18:13:26] Alwarren: I like to do it like in Felis Infernalis. Have the chopper be able to engage, but he needs to be VERY careful. On top of that, infantry is right in the action so just banging your missiles into town won't work. And finally, I should really include more civilians into my missions, because that is always a stop sign for WMD
[16/11/2015 18:14:06] Variable: right, but in these cases, it usually ends with the helicopter's demise
[16/11/2015 18:14:45] Alwarren: It might, yeah. There is always a risk. The same usually holds true for APC's, still you CAN make things survive until the end, you just need to be careful
[16/11/2015 18:15:50] Doveman: or if you have lots of AA that the infantry have to take out before the chopper can enter the arena, then at least they've seen some action before he gets involved.
[16/11/2015 18:16:33] Variable: yeah, as long as taking out the AA won't take too much time, have the team start close to the AA
[16/11/2015 18:16:35] Alwarren: Well AA is problematic, this works if there is only one or two, but if there are manpads, you are bound to overlook one.
[16/11/2015 18:17:13] Doveman: OK, no manpads then
[16/11/2015 18:17:32] Varanon: I still think MANPADS sounds like a male sanitary product :|
[16/11/2015 18:17:41] Alwarren: hehe
[16/11/2015 18:17:49] Doveman: When I say lots of AA, I only really mean enough to make it unsafe for the chopper until the infantry have cleared the way.
[16/11/2015 17:51:48] Variable: jeez last night games were A W E S O M E
[16/11/2015 17:52:22] Alwarren: First mission I died within five minues -_-
Second mission TBH, I was a bit underwhelmed. It was okay.
Third mission, I really liked
[16/11/2015 17:52:40] Alwarren: Etzu beat me to the Hind gunner seat -_-
[16/11/2015 17:53:23] Variable: oh, yeah, I had fun because I got to pilot the Hind and seen a lot of action
[16/11/2015 17:53:51] Alwarren: Yeah... I hardly fired a shot, and I lugged the RPG-7 around for the whole time and never got to shoot it.
[16/11/2015 17:54:47] Variable: sorry :/
[16/11/2015 17:55:10] Alwarren: Why sorry, wasn't your fault
[16/11/2015 17:55:24] Variable: It was, I took all your potential targets
[16/11/2015 17:56:08] Alwarren: That's inherent. There wasn't really much danger for the Hind, so most of the time, the infantry had nothing to do. It's also a matter of how you lead such a mission.
[16/11/2015 17:57:20] Variable: Outlawz lead it like it should in real life, and that means minimizing risk to the ground force
[16/11/2015 17:57:35] Variable: and that makes for a boring experience...
[16/11/2015 17:57:39] Alwarren: Yeah of course. It also means that the ground forces were mostly bored.
[16/11/2015 17:58:16] Variable: that's what I said
[16/11/2015 17:58:28] Alwarren: I was already typing when I read your reply
[16/11/2015 17:59:19] Alwarren: I'm always skeptical with adding chopper support unless there is something that can take down the chopper easily
[16/11/2015 18:00:51] Variable: chopper support need to be mitigated with lots of infantry targets in buildings
[16/11/2015 18:00:58] Variable: helicopters can't do much about that
[16/11/2015 18:01:22] Alwarren: Yeah, or with a real danger to the chopper that the infantry needs to clear.
[16/11/2015 18:01:45] Alwarren: Mission balancing is really hard
[16/11/2015 18:01:48 | Edited 18:01:55] Variable: yeah, but then you have the pilots waiting
[16/11/2015 18:02:20] Alwarren: Well the pilots will be waiting either way. If you have stuff in the buildings, they can't really do anything either
[16/11/2015 18:02:47] Doveman: I guess you can have an unarmed chopper for transport and recon (like a big UAV!), then you don't need to have lots of threats against it and it can't kill all the enemy and make things boring for the ground troops.
[16/11/2015 18:03:14] Variable: Well the pilots will be waiting either way, but if you have stuff in the buildings, the pilots can kill armor that is trying to stop the infantry team from clearing those buildings.
[16/11/2015 18:03:49] Alwarren: Well that always depends on the scenario.
[16/11/2015 18:04:16] Variable: It can be a lot of other challenges, not necesarily armor
[16/11/2015 18:04:32] Doveman: If you remove the gun ammo and only give the chopper a few rockets/missiles to take out armour then it prevents it killing all the infantry.
[16/11/2015 18:05:23] Variable: if any, I'd do the opposite. remove missiles and leave the chin gun, more challenging, and can hold longer
[16/11/2015 18:06:00] Doveman: that's not much use against armour though is it? and it means the chopper can kill all the infantry.
[16/11/2015 18:06:59] Variable: it doesn't have to be armor, it can be trucks or MRAPs
[16/11/2015 18:07:03] Variable: or other choppers
[16/11/2015 18:07:06] Variable: or UAVs
[16/11/2015 18:09:45] Doveman: yeah, it's just that if the chopper has the gun and it spots infantry it's bound to shoot them, particularly if it thinks they're a threat to the ground troops, which then makes life boring for the ground troops. Obviously you can tell the gunner not to shoot at infantry but it's hard to avoid that if he thinks the ground troops are at risk of being killed.
[16/11/2015 18:10:19] Alwarren: TBH, I think limiting the ammo of a chopper works only if there is a resource shortage.
[16/11/2015 18:10:36] Alwarren: Other than that, why would a chopper even take off with only a minimal weapon load
[16/11/2015 18:10:37] Variable: sure, I thought we were still on the subject of infantry targets inside buildings
[16/11/2015 18:10:41] Phantom: [Monday, November 16, 2015 17:57] Alwarren:
<<< Yeah of course. It also means that the ground forces were mostly bored.should make more phantom missions where the ground forces don't get bored.... but murdered
[16/11/2015 18:10:47] Doveman: lol
[16/11/2015 18:10:48] Alwarren:
[16/11/2015 18:11:15] Variable: [Monday, November 16, 2015 17:57] Alwarren: Other than that, why would a chopper even take off with only a minimal weapon load
<<< routed from another mission
[16/11/2015 18:11:39] Variable: like in Red Storm Rising, the Eagles that strafe that big ass ship
[16/11/2015 18:11:47] Variable: with their 20mm cannons
[16/11/2015 18:12:13] Alwarren: Well yeah, that works once or twice, but you can't do that in every mission that includes a chopper.
[16/11/2015 18:12:40] Variable: yeah, I'd deplete the ammo by providing a target rich environment
[16/11/2015 18:13:26] Alwarren: I like to do it like in Felis Infernalis. Have the chopper be able to engage, but he needs to be VERY careful. On top of that, infantry is right in the action so just banging your missiles into town won't work. And finally, I should really include more civilians into my missions, because that is always a stop sign for WMD
[16/11/2015 18:14:06] Variable: right, but in these cases, it usually ends with the helicopter's demise
[16/11/2015 18:14:45] Alwarren: It might, yeah. There is always a risk. The same usually holds true for APC's, still you CAN make things survive until the end, you just need to be careful
[16/11/2015 18:15:50] Doveman: or if you have lots of AA that the infantry have to take out before the chopper can enter the arena, then at least they've seen some action before he gets involved.
[16/11/2015 18:16:33] Variable: yeah, as long as taking out the AA won't take too much time, have the team start close to the AA
[16/11/2015 18:16:35] Alwarren: Well AA is problematic, this works if there is only one or two, but if there are manpads, you are bound to overlook one.
[16/11/2015 18:17:13] Doveman: OK, no manpads then
[16/11/2015 18:17:32] Varanon: I still think MANPADS sounds like a male sanitary product :|
[16/11/2015 18:17:41] Alwarren: hehe
[16/11/2015 18:17:49] Doveman: When I say lots of AA, I only really mean enough to make it unsafe for the chopper until the infantry have cleared the way.
The fewer men, the greater share of honor