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+--- Thread: Virtual Surround sound for headphones (/showthread.php?tid=2340)
Virtual Surround sound for headphones - doveman - 04-10-2013
I've been looking at using Virtual Surround sound for when I use headphones to game. My motherboard actually has THX ProStudio Pro which is meant to do this but it doesn't work and is generally regarded as useless.
So I'm just sharing what I've learnt, for anyone else considering doing this.
The best device is widely accepted to be the Turtle Beach DSS (not the DSS2 as that's rubbish because apparently they couldn't be bothered to buy the Dolby licence necessary to decode the signal!). It needs a Dolby Digital signal over optical SPDIF, which is fine for consoles like the Xbox360 as they output a suitable stream but for PCs it's not so simple, as games don't provide a Dolby Digital stream and so the soundcard needs to be able to encode the multi-channel audio using a feature called Dolby Digital Live (DDL). The DSS generally sells for around £40-50 but they're on ebay at the moment for £25 which is a fantastic deal.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turtle-Beach-DSS-7-1-Dolby-Surround-Sound-Processor-/321083925296?
I believe the Realtek ALC889 chipset can do DDL, although it might not be enabled on all motherboards with this chip. Unfortunately my motherboard has the ALC892, which despite the higher number has less features! So I'm looking at getting a Creative X-Fi Titanium PCI-E card which does feature DDL for about £35-40.
Alternatives are the Xonar DX, which does DDL and Dolby Headphone but doesn't have a dedicated Optical out and shares the line in/mic in using an adapter, so that's no good as I wouldn't be able to use my mic whilst using the Optical out. I guess I could probably continue using the onboard Realtek soundcard just for the mic but I suspect it could cause issues having two soundcards enabled (I have no basis for this feeling other than knowing PCs tend to throw wobblies at the slightest thing!). This is a bit more expensive than the X-Fi at around £55 but reviews suggest it uses higher quality components and gives a somewhat cleaner sound http://uk.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_DX/#specifications
There's also the Xonar DG but that doesn't support DDL, only Dolby Headphone but is only around £25 http://uk.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_DG/#overview
Which brings me onto Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D. These are both Virtual Surround sound technologies that some soundcards have, which don't require an external processor like the DSS, you just plug your headphones into the soundcard. CMSS seems to be considered superior to Dolby Headphone, which is said to sound a bit reverby. You can find plenty of comparison videos on youtube by searching for Dolby Headphone vs CMSS, which should be listened to with your soundcard set to plain stereo (with my Realtek I actually have to set it to 7.1 and then untick all the extra speakers to get proper downmixed stereo) with any virtualisation features switched off. This demo of Dolby Headphone is very good and will let you check that you're setup properly to listen to the other videos. Of course, just because this particular demo gives great positional sound it doesn't mean that Dolby Headphone will necessarily sound that good when gaming
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Rund - 05-14-2013
Thx for the broad and clear overview, However, I dont get one thing: Why would we need this "virtual surround" thingy in hardware, while it's a pure software thing that the game (or dirver or direct x) can do for us? As you mentiion, the youtube video's work great with a normal stereo headset, which is logical, because you have 2 ears. Funny thing is, these video's are recorded using 2 directional microphones at locations that match human ears.
Therefore, I don't believe in this whole virtual surround headphones idea, and I think it's just something they made up to be able to use another fancy Three-Letter-Acronym (TLA).
Now the question is, why isn't this software implementation already the norm? Why would it be so hard to simulate? Honestly I don't know, but it should be possible, it's just a matter of math.
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - doveman - 05-14-2013
You're quite right that it is really a software thing, it's just that some soundcards (i.e. Creative for CMSS) can offload this processing onto the card as I understand. You're certainly better off, from what I've read anyway, in getting a decent pair of stereo headphones like the Samson SR850 I bought, rather than a virtual surround sound headset.
So in theory they could release a software-only version of CMSS, etc but unfortunately they haven't, requiring us to buy specific cards to use it.
Of course, if a software-developer comes up with a decent alternative algorithm, it could be implemented in the driver/game.
Having got the Samson SR850 headphones, I have to say they're well worth much more than the £30 they cost. My Creative Fatality headset, which I thought was good before, sounds like mud in comparison! There's much more detail and hence ability to notice ambient sounds with the Samson. The only downside is the lack of mic. I chopped up an old Logitech headset I had (melted one of the speakers by leaving them too near a lamp anyway!) with the intention of sticking the mic on with some velcro pads but unfortunately the mic shared a common ground with the speakers, which I cut when removing the latter so I've got to try and work out how to rejoin the very short cable ends that are left now :o
I've used them both with the DSS processor on my Xbox and THX ProStudio Pro Virtual Surround on my PC and I have to say I'm not very impressed with either. With the DSS I can toggle the Dolby Headphone on/off with a click of a button and you do notice the sound is wider/more ambient and involving but there's no real sense of sounds being behind you or to the sides, more like at the corners of my ear or forehead. Same with the THX ProStudio, although it's not so easy to disable/enable that (have to come out of game and click around a bit in the control panel) to do a quick comparison but certainly a poor substitute IMHO for real surround.
I'm still considering getting the Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatality Pro http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Titanium-Fatal1ty/M/B0018EFGTM.htm to test CMSS, not for the full £50-60 but I've seen a few on ebay s/h for around £35. I understand the plain X-Fi Titanium without the shielding has some issues with picking up interference so I'm avoiding that.
By the way, those videos would have just been recorded by tapping into the soundstream on the PC as the processing creates a stereo signal with the virtual surround embeddded, so no need to use two microphones or anything like that.
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Misha - 05-14-2013
I think buying a sound card is one of the best things you can do to upgrade your computer, and yet it's one thing that most people neglect. Not only that good sound card can be cheap but also once you get it, there is no need to change it every few years like with graphic cards. I bought X-fi music extreme six years ago and so far it's the only piece of hardware that I didn't change over the course of that six years. And there is no need to change it in a foreseeable future.
It has built in CMSS but since it is always on I cannot tell the difference. Acutally this topic reminded me that I have this feature on the card. I'll try to turn it off and to try to hear the difference.Â
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Variable - 05-14-2013
doveman! First of all, good to hear from you! Secondly, this thread is just what I needed as I've been wanting to get a high quality headset and sound card for a while now, and now my parents in law are in NYC so they can get something to me in a more affordable price than one can get in Israel.
I did read in multiple places that there's no need for surround headsets. Better get some high quality stereo ones.
I want some headset with a built-in microphone. What would be considered a good one to get? I'm willing to spend some cash if it's a high quality one.
What would be a good sound card to support it?
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - doveman - 05-14-2013
@Misha
I think I felt that CMSS was the best of the three when listening to comparison videos on youtube, although even then I had to concentrate quite hard to tell where a sound was coming from and it wasn't anywhere near as obvious as surround sound speakers, certainly for sounds behind me. Where that's not practical though CMSS is probably the best alternative currently. What I really want is 6 speakers mounted on my recliner close to my head, so I could hear them without having to turn the volume upÂ
I think it's harder to imagine what difference a soundcard could make, when onboard sound is pretty good and the main specs don't look much different, compared to onboard GPU and discrete where you'd be going from maybe 10fps to 50fps (obviously a decent graphics card costs a lot more than a soundcard though) but certainly a lot of people who've done so seem to say the difference is very noticeable.
What it says in this Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster_X-Fi about CMSS-3D Headphone is interesting
"CMSS-3D Headphone: When the Creative Control Panel is set to Headphones, this setting creates virtual 3D positional audio via synthesized binaural cues (see Sound localization and Head-related transfer function). If the application generating the audio uses a hardware-accelerated 3D audio API (i.e. DirectSound3D or OpenAL), the input for the binaural synthesis algorithms consists of up to 128 sound sources positioned arbitrarily in 3D space, this is the most accurate utilisation of CMSS-3D. If the application instead generates multi-channel sound directly (e.g. a media player app or a game with software-based audio processing), the input for the binaural synthesis algorithms consist of the 4 to 7 positional sound sources associated with the application's selected speaker configuration. Such applications may use the Speakers settings defined by Windows in which case it is possible to set the Windows Speakers configuration to a multichannel set-up, e.g 5.1, so that the application will output multi channel audio."
It sounds like if the game uses a DirectSound3D or OpenAL, the positioning will be most accurate, compared to if it doesn't and instead just outputs a 5.1/7.1 signal. I'm not sure which games (including Arma) support the former though or if any of those games can be switched into the latter mode to compare.
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Rund - 05-14-2013
(05-14-2013, 10:12 AM)doveman link Wrote: By the way, those videos would have just been recorded by tapping into the soundstream on the PC as the processing creates a stereo signal with the virtual surround embeddded, so no need to use two microphones or anything like that.
For the tech comparison videos maybe yes, but most "surround demo" videos (like the famous virtual barbershop) are recorded IRL with two mics. Which is my point, that we don't need anything fancy, and every onboard crappy realtek soundcard should be able to do this, when the API is right.
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - doveman - 05-14-2013
Hey Variable, thanks. Yeah, been MIA for a while but had a lot to be getting on with lately and struggling to find time to game much at the moment. Hopefully things will calm down a bit soon and I'll be back
Certainly for the soundcard I'd recommend the Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatality Pro http://www.amazon.com/Creative-SB0886-Titanium-Fatal1ty-Professional/dp/B0018EFGTM/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1368534186&sr=8-8&keywords=creative+x-fi+titanium+fatality+pro This has the shielding over the board to protect it from interference but I'm only going by what I've read that this is important and you could take a chance on the cheaper standard X-Fi Titanium or even the Xtreme Gamer if you can still find it anywhere. Alternatives to Creative if you decide CMSS-3D isn't important are the Asus Xonar DX/DG/DGX http://uk.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_DGX/ which might have less features/connections than but apparently use higher quality components and thus have a cleaner sound (and perhaps the drivers are less problematic than Creative's but daniel k's pack apparently eliminated a lot of those problems http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=698937 )
As mentioned in the Wiki I quoted from to Misha, the best positional audio with CMSS-3D apparently comes with games that use Direct3D or OpenAL and it seems there's been a move away from that to software processing, which gives far worse positional audio. So if the games you play don't support either of those APIs, you probably won't be very impressed with CMSS-3D. Some reports suggest THX ProStudio Pro is clearer than CMSS-3D although the virtual surround is not as good as CMSS-3D with Direct3D or OpenAL but may be just as good with games that use software processing. I recommend you have a listen to some youtube videos demonstrating CMSS-3D and THX such as this
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - doveman - 05-14-2013
(05-14-2013, 02:56 PM)rundll.exe link Wrote: For the tech comparison videos maybe yes, but most "surround demo" videos (like the famous virtual barbershop) are recorded IRL with two mics. Which is my point, that we don't need anything fancy, and every onboard crappy realtek soundcard should be able to do this, when the API is right.
Oh right, absolutely. If CMSS-3D was available as software to be used on any soundcard and games used Direct3D/OpenAL then it'd be great (although I think CMSS-3D is probably a bit dated now and a better algorithm could be made that would provide as good positioning without affecting the clarity as much).
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Misha - 05-15-2013
I agree with what Doveman said regarding cards. Compare various models and see what's best for you. Asus cards may be current state of the art as X-fi models are now rather old but maybe not that much to feel difference.
One thing I regret that I don't have is a front panel or external box to make connecting headhones or other things more easy. Like this one:
![[Image: fatal1ty.jpg]](http://www.nordichardware.com/skrivelser_img/432/fatal1ty.jpg)
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Variable - 05-15-2013
I never understood why the connections for the PC are not in its damn front. That's what happen when you let engineers design
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - doveman - 05-16-2013
Another good option for headset is the Razer Carcharias http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/headphones/razer-carcharias-headset-review-49301542/ and at around £70 is a lot cheaper than the Sennheiser PC-360 or Astro A40 and seems to be considered to sound better than the A40 as well.
Or you could get the Samson SR-850 for around £30 and the Modmic http://www.modmic.com/ for another £30 and have a killer set of headphones and mic (probably both better than either of the above options, although the PC-360 might be close or equal) for around £60
The only downside of the Modmic might be that it doesn't have a mute switch (they're planning a version with one) and there might be a shipping delay as it's a small company making them (they're meant to be getting stock in Friday). International shipping is 12USD (and there might be Customs fees of course) but if your parents can get it for you whilst they're in the US, shipping is only 4-9USD, depending on how fast they need it delivered.
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Variable - 05-16-2013
Thanks doveman! I think I'll go with the Razer Carcharias Gaming Headset you recommended on!
What sound card would you recommend to make the most of it and still not overshoot my needs (which are only gaming)?
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - doveman - 05-16-2013
(05-16-2013, 08:34 PM)Variable link Wrote: Thanks doveman! I think I'll go with the Razer Carcharias Gaming Headset you recommended on!
What sound card would you recommend to make the most of it and still not overshoot my needs (which are only gaming)?
Cool. Looks like a good headset and I might have bought one myself rather than the SR850 if I'd seen it, if only to avoid the hassle of having to hook up a separate mic
For the soundcard, the Xonar DG may well be sufficient for your needs at $30 but it's a PCI card so make sure that's what you want http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-XONAR-Headphone-Audio-Card/dp/B0045JHJSS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1368738528&sr=8-3&keywords=asus+xonar+dx
http://uk.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_DG/#overview
If you need a PCI-E card the Xonar DGX is $40 http://www.amazon.com/Xonar-DGX-PCI-E-GX2-5-Engine/dp/B007TMZ1BK/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1368739835&sr=1-1&keywords=asus+xonar+dgx
http://uk.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_DGX/
Those should be sufficient if you're just gaming with headphones or PC speakers.
If you want something that will really shine with an AV receiver and high quality speakers there's the more expensive Asus Xonar DX for $85 http://www.amazon.com/PCI-Express-Channel-XONAR_DX-XD-90-YAA060-1UAN00Z/dp/B0017DJXG6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368738528&sr=8-1&keywords=asus+xonar+dx
http://uk.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_DX/#specifications
The DX uses higher quality capacitors, which will better withstand heat and thus could make the card last longer but if your PC case is properly cooled it probably isn't worth worrying about and you have to consider you could buy three DG's for the price of one DX.
One advantage the Xonar cards have over the Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatality Pro (and other Creative cards) is that they have a Front Panel header, so providing you have headphone and mic sockets on the front of your PC case, you can connect the cable from them to the soundcard and voila, you have front sockets without needing to spend more on a connector box. They also use better components and thus have higher quality audio.
It seems that just like Creative, ASUS drivers have some bugs as well so if you do get one, you might want to use the open-source Unified drivers instead of the official ones http://maxedtech.com/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/
Re: Virtual Surround sound for headphones - Misha - 05-17-2013
I noticed that DG and DGX have C-media audio chip which is usually used for onboard sound but DX has Asus chip. I would go for DX because of that, to make sure there is a considerable difference compared to what you have now.
But I never tried either of the cards so I just guess.