Comrades in Arms Discussion Board

Yes both Charlie and alpha/bravo AO have support on call if anyone escapes the area via vehicle, they will also create a small road block with the vehicles and stand sentry.

(03-20-2016, 11:36 AM)Brad link Wrote:that task is bugged/not working, had some issues due to the blufor being detected whilst undercover in the cartels truck, usually ticks on exit of the area  as long as you drive back through the rd block, had it working before so not sure of the issue. Sounds like it all went as I had intended  the jet turning up at hazar bagh is due too enemy escaping via motorbike, if anyone noticed ?

Charlie was clearning the compound at Feruz Abad, then we see a guy with a motorcycle drive down the road. We shoot him and he falls down nearby on the read. OK Good...

We then pack up and take some enemy vehicles and drive next to/past his cycle. Lead car passes fine but second car gets rekt due to explosion from guy. Guessing he was suicide bomber? Had to go back and treat some guys and pick up a replacement vehicle.

(03-20-2016, 02:26 PM)Brad link Wrote:Yes both Charlie and alpha/bravo AO have support on call if anyone escapes the area via vehicle, they will also create a small road block with the vehicles and stand sentry.

Charlie, made sure nobody escaped.  8)

Zavarak Data Heist
(AH-9 pilot. Air wing (Unnamed))

Disable comms. Download a virus.

This is a nice mission with nice ideas. In previous attempt I was infantryman, this time I was providing gunship support.

Not much for the pilots to do. We transported infantry and then had a long wait. There were plenty of AA threats and boots on the ground wanted to keep us safe. Happens, a good mission never the less.

Yellowcake
(Sniper team lead)

Locate&steal uranium trucks from heavily guarded base.

For some reason the weight of the sniper TL loadout was > 45 kgs, resulting inability to jog. In comparison RL Barrett .50 cal weighs around ~15 kgs with optics/candy so they aren't your regular carbines, but in this case it was a bit overdone. Well that's what quadbikes are for.

We set up to nearby hill with Unnamed.  Unnamed was responsible of overwatch to uranium storage compound, I took care of northern sector from another hilltop. We quickly acquired targets and updated threat picture. Tons of infantry, one Marid, one Strider HMG and as icing to yellow cake, Mora IFV in the compound.

Bravo started their sneak in the north and was eventually discovered. Marid at fuel station was promptly destroyed and I started engaging Strider with AP rounds but it too was soon destroyed by some skillful AT specialist.  This probably saved the mission.

Hunting season had started and me and Unnamed began to drop targets. I concentrated first to sector near Bravo and then joined to assist with Uranium compound. I had no NV compatible scope and it was pitch black night. In the end I only spotted targets for friendlies.

We had potential friendly fire incident with escaping trucks. Intel suggested enemy might attempt to relocate/destroy assets and escaped truck would mean mission failure. Unnamed reported of trucks moving away and I had no clear picture of Alphas intention to get the trucks. I did brief check and only saw lasers further away from trucks. I gave order to stop them. Soon it became apparent they were friendlies.

To do better:

I should have checked with Alpha to verify their presence/intentions and maintain better awareness of A-team.

CSR [FHQ]
(Demolition specialist. Viper-Green (Sithis))

Locate a crashed drone. Download datacore. Destroy it. Extract.

First time crash site was in Kavala! Nice weather and urban crawl supporting friendlies. My team had the mission critical specialists so we were ordered to stay back. Connection lost (this mission hates me), and I rejoined friendlies on beach boulevard. Crash site was located and my team was ordered to fray. Few short firefights during our push, nice action. Crash site found, Phantom downloaded the datacore, demo charge set, kaboom, done and hike to extraction at beach where Unnamed picked us up.  Fun mission, great teamwork and leading.  One of smoothest CSR runs.

About leading:

My TL, Sithis, frequently kept the team informed of what's happening, what we do now, and what we are likely to do next. Sure, we heard it on comm grid due alternate channel setup, but I liked it never the less. It was good leading and immersion element.

Fog of war
(a god)

Enemy general is arriving to inspect troops in Utes. Small NAPA team is inserting to area to shoot down the general's aircraft/sabotage airfield.

Ok. I admit. The fog effect was a bit overdone, but it only affected things at the sea level, which was the purpose. It also saved your asses, especially in the end so respect the fog! Undesirable side effect was that even your god couldn't find where you left your boats : P

It was fun to watch you setting up. Alwarren's team almost landed to enemy patrol's hands and narrowly averted it. Patrol was in search mode, but missed you. I think they heard your boat, but didn't see you in the fog.

Unnamed's sniper team managed to sneak to overwatch without incidents and Sithis's AA-team setup to NW end of runway.  Alwarren's saboteur team had most of the action at this phase and they avoided detection like professional rangers. At least in two occasions it was very, very close.

Soon teams received the message of general's plane landing. AA specialist Variable and Phantom took aim as the SU-25 was on final approach to runway 09. Phantom's missile detonated behind the aircraft but Variables shot was a direct hit. Scratch one general and start of the mayhem. 

Saboteur team was attempting to eliminate spotted ammo/fuel trucks and heavy firefight erupted in SW end of airfield. Same time BRDM-2 arrived to ruin the party for Sithis's AA hunter/killer team however they managed to incapacitate it.

Saboteur teams attempt to push to truck was checked with resistance and teams were ordered to extract. As both teams had professionally marked the locations of their boats at insertion the boats were immediately and promptly found without any kind of wtf search/confusion/curses (not even I could find them for you ^^)

During your extraction several enemy helicopters, one Su-25 and one patrol boat were hunting you, but they couldn't get accurate fix on you in the fog.

From technical point of view there were notable issues with AI refusing to move/board vehicles. I investigate the Zeus/AI/locality issue and adjust the fog array.

This is how it looked from above. I assume view from the sea level must have been different ^^

Zavarak Data Heist
(Charlie Group Leader)

Our first LZ was way too close to the target and so we ended up in front of an APC and a roadblock.
We already discussed what happened in the following minute and it ended with the APC burning and the objective achieved.

After pickup the new LZs were again way to close to the target, but after protest the pilots made it work anyway. The assault went smoothly and I was just about to organize the second assault when I was shot by a sniper.

Yellowcake
(Alpha Leader)

Coordinating Alpha itself was rather simple and when the enemy turned to attack Bravo we had a very smooth attack with little resistance.

Where things did not go as smooth was with the communication with the other teams. As I lost coms with Bravo I did not really know what was going on, but since every enemy moved towards them I knew they where in trouble. The Snipers were supporting them as best they could from their position, so at that point I concentrated more on my Squad than the operation as a whole which let to the other teams not knowing that we had already captured the trucks. 

So lesson learned: Always ask yourself "Who knows what I need to know and who needs to know what I know?"

CSR [FHQ]
(Group Leader Charlie)

So again I had the honor of leading the specialist team that has to survive.

Usually I hate beeing micro-managed, but this time it worked out perfect, since Variables intended route for us lead us straight into the enemies flank. From there it was smooth sailing. Very action packed and everybody on my team was quick to react.

Nice to know that Stag noticed that I made an effort not to repeat my mistakes from Yellowcake and communicate more ;D .

Fog of war
(AA Teamleader)

Sorry for the confusion at the start I thought everybody was aware which slot was which and I hope it didnt make much difference anyway since I tried to push as much decision making as possible down to the Teamleader level. 

We had less warning time than anticipated, so it was near impossible for the Demo team to get into position for a three way attack.

After we shot down the General I had to decide weather to destroy as many enemy vehicles as possible or play it safe and retreat.
I would have retreated, but we are all in this for the fun and exitement, right ?

So the snipers engaged from the north, we moved closer from the west and I was hoping the Demo team would get close and personal attacking from the south-west.

Then shit got real, real fast. One of the snipers died, we encountered an APC and I just saw messages poping up about people from the Demo team beeing down. Thats when I called for the retreat and miraculously everone, but one soldier who remains UnNamed, made it out alive.

(03-21-2016, 08:55 PM)Sithis link Wrote:Zavarak Data Heist
(Charlie Group Leader)

Our first LZ was way too close to the target and so we ended up in front of an APC and a roadblock.
We already discussed what happened in the following minute and it ended with the APC burning and the objective achieved.

I beg to differ. The LZ was NOT too close to the target, and if your pilot is not capable of waving off if there is a danger nearby, I cannot help that. I explicitly said the pilot should wave off if the LZ is hot. We inserted perfectly fine, and were not at all spotted from the tower.


I (maybe falsely) assumed that your pilot would not land in front of an APC/Roadblock and search for a different LZ. I cannot see what you or your pilot sees, and I do not want to micromanage every aspect. As I said, I specifically told the pilots to look for another LZ, but even if I hadn't, it is common sense.

Quote:After pickup the new LZs were again way to close to the target, but after protest the pilots made it work anyway. The assault went smoothly and I was just about to organize the second assault when I was shot by a sniper.

Again, I disagree. There was nothing to "make it work". I told the pilot to fly in low from the south, there was absolutely no danger and we weren't engaged at any point, so my calculation proved to be right no the point. Granted, this was a risk, but a calculated risk and I was right.


So I really don't understand the argument here.

Well most threats see and shoot further than a pilot busy with landing can recon them, therefore a transport helicopter should never be tasked to land in contested areas without beeing covered by other forces.

We had two different insertions:

Number one was the radio tower. The marked LZ was on the road downhill from the radiotower. This means that even an HMG or AT weapon placed close to the objective to protect it would have been able to engage the helicopter at any point and most critically while landed at the LZ. There is no way for a pilot to recon a hidden heavy weapon like that until he is dead.

Number two was the within range of AA. Now AA changes the whole picture for anything in the air and of course terrain flight is important, but we had no idea where exactly the AA was stationed, so it was a gamble that the LZ itself was not covered. Terrain flight at night is a dangerous beast. Flying along canyons with a helicopter is usually safe even at night, as long as one makes sure the canyons themselves are not covered.
As soon as you penetrate the AA shield at night you are throwing dices, because you can not control the variables:
Are all hills at all times covering me against the positions where I think the AA is?
Could there be AA somewhere that negates my cover?
Is terrain flight safe in this area?
Do the people executing the flight have all the information and are able to act on it?
In our scenario the answers were Yes, no idea, no, no.

Now it is probably more a question of doctrine than execution how high a risk is acceptable on insertion, but when you only survive, because APC and infantry 40 meters away werent able to detect a landing helicopter in plain sight, it is a clear sign that more conservative LZs are advisable.

Sithis had we played like that it would have definitely increased our life expectancy, but also made the game a whole lot boring. Leading often is striking the balance between safety and danger, but danger in Arma translates to fun. Every leader chooses his own path between the two and what we saw on this mission was not unreasonable.

Zavarak Data Heist
(Transport Group Leader)

Bligdog and me had the two transport helicopters and Stag had the AH9

Landing at LZ A was interessting, as the night was dark and full of rocks and the NV-Goggles weren't worth shit since you can't turn up the sensitivity. I managed to deploy Alfa and Bravo and went on station 500m away with Stag to wait for further orders and enjoyed the lightshow.
When the Ground teams where done  I picked up Alfa and bravo at the LUP and wa given orders for new LZ's, I had a quick glanze on the map and didn't like what I saw, objected, but was told to go there in a wide route. still didn't like the first LZ but saw the second was shielded by a mountain that i hadn't seen on my first glance at the map (flying and reading a map is not the safest thing to do).
Deploying Alfa went without incident even though terrain flight with those shitty goggles was far from compfortable (and had the south Zavarak launchers been on rooftops they would have had line of sight).
For Bravo LZ I took a long route that kept us well shielded from Zavarak and deployed Bravo at their quite safe LZ.
In the mean time BlingDog reported deployment of Charlie and Delta and I ordered him to stand down at the FOB, which was where I returned to as well. Stag landed his chopper near Alfa LZ so he would have a shorter response time.
for the next half hour BlingDog an me missed a deck of cards and I used the time to light the area with some chemlights... after those had burned out (I have never seen chemlights with less than 2 hour written on them... and thats the time for maximum light from them) I realized that do light the area for further landings I might as well just switch on some of the headlights of the parked vehicles.
After that there was more waiting... I din't really mind because I knew before that I would be flying transport and tha tmeans to me that there will be some waiting which is why I brought my kindle with me, but i got only a little reading done while keeping my ears on the radio traffic for indications we might be needed .
After A while It was apparent that Dan was about to order extraction and I ordered Stag and Blingdog back into the choppers and we moved closer towards LZ alfa for further orders.
Den Ordered us to Pick them up on the main road between northern Zavarak and souther Zavarak.
this time the nightvision got me as my gear caught on a tree that i had not seen in the shadow of a small hill  and the impakt injured me.
I was able to land my chopper, but Stag who quickly came to help me did not have the training to treat my wounds and that was mission end for me.

I got to say that writing this I notice how much I appreciated the FOB as we had a place where we didn't need to worry about being attacked  while we sat in our choppers there due to all the guards.

One reason I did not like the closer LZ was that I had been shot down a bit further away from there on a previous attempt flying low over the ground.

Yellowcake
(Sniper under Stag command)

After we sorted out our gear and grabbed what ammo we could carry Stag and I set out on our quad bike towards our observation posts. on our hills we were able to see most of the AO and began to mark targets on the map, plenty of infantry stationary... more patrolling, and some nasty looking vehicles..... the osther teams where in for some fun.
Stag kept an eye on bravon and told me to keep an eye on the uranium facility. After bravo had been spotted and the developing firefight had drawn away most of the patrols we received "Open fire" command after the enemys had blown up one of the trucks and I worked my way through the stationary guards of the facility while Stag supported bravo.
suddenly there were trucks making their way on the road to the east. I told stag who called them out on LR and I started engaging them  missing the driver only by some centimeters shortly before he disappeared from my view. that could not be helped so I quickly scaned the remaining trucks to make sure I got anyone who might attempt to get in. No one tried and the area looked quite.
Next Alfa announched they were moving trucks and entering the compound to get more of them.
suddenly I didn't feel as bad for missing the driver of the fleeing truck anymote as it must have been one of alfas people.
Stag and I Remained in position until the action started to move away from us and stag told me to get the ATV . I was just stumbling over some of Alfas men when the mission ended.

CSR [FHQ]
(Transport pilot)

We spawned close to the castle which was where I intended to land.
Someone complained how slow I inserted: big fat helicopters build up quite some momentum which takes time to loose, a smaller chopper could bne landed way quicker than this.... also i was at about 6-8 FPS  while landing which didn't make things easier.
After deploying the ground teams I was told to wild weasle.... not really the agile aircraft I would want for that, but orders are orders. the first few runs where without incident, then i dodged one rocket. on the nex run I ate one rocket which fucked up the anti torque (I really want to now how that works with a chopper which has no tailrotor but two mainrotors spinning in different directions) and dodged another rocket.
after that I was ordered to stop the wild weasling and decided to land at the castle which i expected to be the LZ for extraction and which was also shielded from the town. just took me 3 attempts to land since I kept spinning too far even though i had the left rudder pressed all the way .
after a while I heard the ground team had completed their mission and spooled up the chopper again and was then told to pick them up on the pier. due to the damage the LZ was to small for me and i advised to use a concrete pad on a slightly different location of the pier after passing over the LZ.
I had to wave of the first landing attempt due to incoming fire and returned to the LZ after a smokescreen had been put up and landed on the pier (5FPS now)

Fog of war
(Hunter team Leader)

Varanon and me inserted with Alfa team and after swimming in the wrong direction a little we managed to climb out of the fog and were on our way . we came across a small military camp which was abbandoned except for a smoking truck and crept on and set up on the next hill. there Varanon told me we were on the wrong hill so we kept on moving to the right one from which we had view of most of the western part of the airfield.
we marked Contacts and the Supply trucks and waited for orders.
soon we were rewardes with a nice firework as the Generals SU was shot down by the AA team and we were weapons free and worked our way through the targets.
A call came that a technical was movin on the airfield which varanon and me were able to take out with two shots.
I killed a pilot running for his chopper, but was slow to get the real thread for myself, which was the doorgunner who got the shot on my a split second before i pulled the trigger.

(03-22-2016, 09:20 AM)Sithis link Wrote:Number one was the radio tower. The marked LZ was on the road downhill from the radiotower. This means that even an HMG or AT weapon placed close to the objective to protect it would have been able to engage the helicopter at any point and most critically while landed at the LZ. There is no way for a pilot to recon a hidden heavy weapon like that until he is dead.

Your line of argument would prohibit any sort of helicopter insertion into enemy territory since there can always be hidden AA threads anywhere, so we might as well ditch choppers altogehter

Quote:Number two was the within range of AA.

Let me think... how many AA missiles were fired at us? That's right, zero. Zavarak and the road lies in a valley. The southern hills aren't very high, which is why I ordered an approach from the south and at low altitude so that the terrain would shield us from any AA thread. And lo and behold, we reached the LZ without ever drawing fire.

Quote:Now it is probably more a question of doctrine than execution how high a risk is acceptable on insertion, but when you only survive, because APC and infantry 40 meters away werent able to detect a landing helicopter in plain sight, it is a clear sign that more conservative LZs are advisable.

Geez, if your pilot inserts you 40 meters away from an APC and infantry, I am sorry, that is NOT MY FAULT, it is the fault of your pilot. I EXPLICITLY told them to look for an alternate LZ if there was any sort of danger, and as I said in my previous post, that is a normal question of common sense. I am getting tired of having to point this out.


I say again, not landing on top of an APC is THE PILOT'S TASK, not the team leader. If the pilot is not able to make that call by himself, do not blame me for it. The LZ's were fine, the outcome of both the LZ at the tower AND the LZ near the town completely justify my decision. Was there a risk involved? Yes there was, but you start to risk something as soon as you get out of your bloody base. Your argument could be applied to the entire area of the map, there could be a patrolling APC or aircraft anywhere. In any real-life situation you would probably have more intel.


@Unnamed

Quote:I had a quick glanze on the map and didn't like what I saw, objected, but was told to go there in a wide route. still didn't like the first LZ

Same rules apply. You don't have to like it, but as a matter of fact, we had no missiles flying so my estimate that the lower foothills would shield us if we fly in low was right on the point.As I said before, I am not going to stretch out the mission to two hours just because we want to play it safe all the time.

(03-22-2016, 09:20 AM)Sithis link Wrote:Now it is probably more a question of doctrine than execution how high a risk is acceptable on insertion, but when you only survive, because APC and infantry 40 meters away werent able to detect a landing helicopter in plain sight, it is a clear sign that more conservative LZs are advisable.

Ok, let me barge in here and say this: This is a GAME. We do not have a doctrine, we have rules.


And Alwarren is right, you can not know how the landing zone looks like. It's up to you, the ream inserting at that area, to determine whether the landing zone is safe or not. If not, wave off and find an alternative.


Also, regarding heavy weapons, there was a bit of metagaming involved, since we knew from a previous attempt that the thing was lightly guarded.


And for the record, the safety is NOT a function of distance. You could have encountered that roadblock anywhere, with the same result, or with total loss of the helicopter.


If you want safety in landing zones, be prepared to spent half the evening walking, because no sane landing zone would be within a kilometer of a known AA threat in reality.


I can only echo what Variable said: Yes, in reality, you would be far more careful. In reality, you would probably spend A LOT more time walking than you spent fighting. But it's a game, the aim is to have fun. Fulfilling the mission is just an added bonus, sometimes failing can be more fun than succeeding.

Quote:Your line of argument would prohibit any sort of helicopter insertion into enemy territory since there can always be hidden AA threads anywhere, so we might as well ditch choppers altogehter

We do have known enemy locations. Of course we have to take some risks, but instead of landing between the enemies Kamikaze style we could do two things:

1. Land out of range of heavy weapons from known enemy locations.
2. Land out of range of known enemy AA sites.

Variable mentioned the balance between fun and risk and he is absolutely right and I am not proposing landing 5 km away, just maybe not in sight of the enemy HMG.

Quote:Let me think... how many AA missiles were fired at us? That's right, zero.

Yes, but not thanks to planning and knowledge of the enemy AA set up, but thanks to luck. One unseen terrain feature or one AA in a slightly different spot and that would have been it.

Quote:I say again, not landing on top of an APC is THE PILOT'S TASK, not the team leader.

It is 100% the leaders task. Espacially when on the next insertion one pilot says it is to risky and the leader says "well you will do it anyway". We are talking transport helicopters not recon choppers. The pilot has no way of knowing weather the LZ is safe until something blows him to pieces. It is the leaders responsibility to minimize that risk.

Quote:Your argument could be applied to the entire area of the map, there could be a patrolling APC or aircraft anywhere.

Oh absolutely, there is always a risk.
But knowing the enemy hot spots and nothing else one can at least take those into account. I have not been arguing about any possible threats, but only about threats that we knew about.

Quote:In any real-life situation you would probably have more intel.

@ Varanon

Quote:We do not have a doctrine

Well doctrine for a lack of better word. Like the standart formations in use and the balance between safety and danger. What should I call that instead?

Quote:If you want safety in landing zones, be prepared to spent half the evening walking, because no sane landing zone would be within a kilometer of a known AA threat in reality.

Well we have 1 km walk in several missions, so I did not see this as an issue.

I got to say that on the first lz not landing on the hmg was the pilots task since there were no informations about its presence and thus no way command could have planed for it

(03-22-2016, 12:32 PM)Sithis link Wrote:Well doctrine for a lack of better word. Like the standart formations in use and the balance between safety and danger. What should I call that instead?

Nothing, because there is nothing like that. As I said, we have rules on the server, i.e. follow your leader, don't run up ahead, etc. The rest is up to the individual commanding the mission. IF you want to play it save, by all means, do so.


We walked 1 km in mission before, yes. We even walked 3 km in missions once. If you like walking for kilometers in a pitch black desert, be my guest. But as soon as the downtimes are much longer than the actual action/planing/firefights, it gets boring.


As I said, this is a game, this is NOT military.

Quote:But as soon as the downtimes are much longer than the actual action/planing/firefights, it gets boring.

Beeing dead increases the downtime

Quote:As I said, this is a game, this is NOT military.

Where does this argument come from again? Nothing of what I said has anything to do with the real world and everything with the game.

(03-22-2016, 12:32 PM)Sithis link Wrote:We do have known enemy locations. Of course we have to take some risks, but instead of landing between the enemies Kamikaze style we could do two things:

This is getting ridiculous. We did not land "between enemies" and not "Kamikaze-Style". Your pilot landed you on top of a roadblock, that was not what I ordered. Even if I sound like a broken record, I ordered to only land if it is safe.

Quote:Yes, but not thanks to planning and knowledge of the enemy AA set up, but thanks to luck. One unseen terrain feature or one AA in a slightly different spot and that would have been it.

That is where you are wrong. I was 90% sure that the hills would shield us. I know the area, both towns are behind the hills. There is open ground to the east of it, and a narrow valley to the west of the eastmost town. If you don't believe me, go look it up.  There was only a small window were AA would be able to engage, which is why I said to fly in from the south.

Quote:It is 100% the leaders task. Espacially when on the next insertion one pilot says it is to risky and the leader says "well you will do it anyway". We are talking transport helicopters not recon choppers. The pilot has no way of knowing weather the LZ is safe until something blows him to pieces. It is the leaders responsibility to minimize that risk.

It is the leaders responsibility to make the mission fun. For me, that always means I prefer a risky approach over a lame duck approach. It does not matter in this case. As I explained above, I was reasonably certain we would be covered. The place that Unnamed mentioned were he got shot down before was within said valley.

Quote:Well we have 1 km walk in several missions, so I did not see this as an issue.

I did. I have played this mission before, and last time it took almost 2 hours. And yes, I anticipated the pilots to be mostly out of work for the second part of the mission once they dropped us off at the final LZ, so I tried to minimize the wait for them. Which, incidentally, is also the reason why I ordered the chopper to drop off the recon team instead of having them walk there.


I struck a balance between (calculated) risks and boring hikes through a featureless desert by night. I will not apologize for the approach I took, and it was BY FAR less risky like you make it appear. There was nothing Kamikaze about it, and the issue with the roadblock was entirely up to the pilot of Charlie and Delta. I believe it was BlinDog and I fell sorry for him because he was more or less forced into the role since it was the only slot left.


However, I will not allow you to pin words like "Kamikaze" on this, the same way I will not allow you to pin that thing with the APC on my orders. I expect enough autonomy from everyone involved. Unnamed and BlinDog did an admirable job getting us to LZ Arizona, just as I expected them to. As I said, I know the terrain, and I was pretty sure that this approach would work, and it did. I wasn't just playing Russian Roulette.


Were I faced with the same decisions, I would take them again, so please stop pretending that I was yelling "Alahu Akbar" and running in with blazing barrels.