(11-23-2015, 07:19 PM)Alwarren link Wrote:Approaching Kavala
I want to echo Outlawz's comments regarding comms. That was a regular mess.
Secondly, though, radio messages must be CLEARLY directed at someone. Half of the time I was left wondering whether it was me or someone else that the order was for. To that extend, the message should ALWAYS start with
I agree that communication was a huge issue in this mission but I disagree with you saying that radio messages were not directed properly in the mission. If you don't know who the orders were for or didn't hear, ask. I have no problem in repeating if necessary.
As the leader in the mission, all commands were started with Bobcat do X, Bravo do Y, Alpha is doing Z etc. There may have been times where I might've been said the callsign a second before transmission or talked like sonic the hedgehog but I tried my best making it clear who I wanted to talk to.
The issue was that they were on wrong channel, not paying attention or information to passed down appropiately or something else.
Regardless the main issue is people not on the same frequency and I think that people, if they don't hear orders for more than a few minutes then there clearly could be an issue with communication and they should make an query with their squad leader or even side chat or long range chat ...
I was not aware that vehicles could not hear orders until very late in the mission. The LR Frequency was posted multiple times in chat for people to get to it. If it's something important that all teams should hear like rocket launcher at bearing X from Y, squad members are free to use LR (Atleast if I'm leading, I don't know if others prefer it differently).
Execution and approach itself was fine until the bunker issue killing like 4 people and me dying closely from something else.
TLDR:
-If you don't hear any orders etc, make a query. Are you on right channel etc.
-Pay attention to side chat for changes in frequency to radio channels.
-Ask if you need orders repeated or something.
(11-23-2015, 04:45 PM)SPhoenix link Wrote:Did you guys finish Approaching Kavala?
Should I tone down the difficulty?
No, Bobcat was destroyed.
I think it was easy, maybe our ASR AI settings make it so, but all enemies I saw were alone, mabye a pair and never a threat. I think what managed to decimate us was the Marid or some other heavy weapon, because we took random grenade fire during the approach to the objective and I was killed by a barrage of grenades crossing the crossroads. That and some of us had no NVGs.
Also 300 AI near/in Kavala makes it a lagfest for some people. I think there should be less units but more difficult, static MGs or more vehicles.
I can definitely help with that!
This is very helpful feedback, thank you guys.
Comms issues:
I noticed issues with wrong LR/Alternate channel first time when we played my winter mission two weeks ago. LR/Alternate for my SR wasn't set. Same issues has happened now with several missions, and it seems to be first mission of the day.
Approaching Kavala
In RL fireteam/squad leader has eye contact, gestures, hand signals, harsh language, can grab someones vest and pull the grunt to safety from under fire, etc. In Arma we have none of these. Even menial tasks which you can give with a nod, hand signal etc have to be addressed in voice in Arma. It stresses comms channel and emphasizes comms discipline. In small fireteam mission you can get away just by following leader and using common sense and listening local.
In mission like this, NFW. If comms fails for any reason, it results confusion. If things would go smoothly without radio communication in mission like this I would be scared. It would mean my tin foil insulation isn't working and others can read my mind.Â
This had to be one of the toughest for the leader. There are lots of things to manage. Even if comm's discipline is perfect and we have no radio issues, it is lot of work.
With mission of this scope, it might make sense to assign someone from Alpha as 'dedicated fireteam leader' to handle the micromanaging of the actual squad, at least in phase when teams are scattered. Overall leader acts like rl platoon leader.
His job is to direct vehicles, tells where teams goes, and tries to keep the strings in his hands. He makes sure they are going to right place, but actual hands-dirty-infantry-managing is left to team leader(s). PL moves in with one of the squads, Alpha would be natural choice, but he lets the '2nd in command' handle the bulk of infantry movement of the Alpha and intervenes only if he has to.
Now Den had to act as leader for Alpha, manage other infantry team, 2 hunters, 1 Marshall and 1 Bobcat under less-than-working radio environment. That is a load of work, especially with poor visibility, rain, fog, and without the magic map. When you have lot of things going on, good way to ease workload is to utilize your sub-commanders to max.
I think Den did good job in a tough mission under difficult conditions. We got lot hell of a lot further this time. I thought we were going to make it until things at bunker got ugly. We didn't nade the bunker properly and took lot of casualties in clearing it. At that phase we also took fire from infantry further down the road. Then Gorgon showed up and barbecued us to orbit.
I'm really looking forward to try this mission again.
Technically:Â
I wouldn't make radical changes.
This isn't a Burger King mission. This is a Grand Tour of Murder. Spiritual relative to..something like FHQ missions and it has to be evaluated as such. I usually dislike missions where we're attacking vastly superior force (95% of Worskshop missions, including some of my own), but in this case we also have tools. 2 HMGs with thermals, APC. When used right, that packs quite a punch. Mission is winnable and we got quite close this time. Lot of effort and details including voices!Â
Personally I would add 1 firemission (not more!) of mortar support to leader. It adds extra card to leaders
deck without disrupting the mission balance.
I had some FPS issues and I don't know the unit count on the map. Maybe slightly less? Or spawn some less critical units dynamically via scripts when comrades approaches mission critical areas? Kavala is pretty lag heavy area and AI urban pathfinding is tough on performance.
We also had some issues with loadouts. Lot of people were missing NVGs and as it takes time at evening, there is no point why NVG isn't in loadout in the beginning. We had to rely on battlefield capture for NVGs for lot of men.Â
Outpost assault
Burger King mission. Okay. Easy.
Spartan assault
I had bad vibes from reading the not-so-good briefing, but it turned out to be pretty good mission. I would have preferred some info from HQ that friendlies are about to assault the airfield with us, as we had lot of Red-on-Red with AI.
Death Squad
The three thing standing out on this mission for me is spacing, spacing, and spacing. Bravo and Charlie were so close to us all the time that it was impossible to manoeuver without bumping into another squad. When moving like this, especially in such open terrain, keep your distance from the other squads. At least 100 meters, possibly more.
Ammo Run
I really don't know what happened there between Alpha and Charlie, but it was a nightmare to lead.
First of all, the truck kept losing us even though we had lights on and didn't drive fast. Then I said "Go right on the crossing" and the truck went left, exposing itself to machine gun fire from the base.
I liked the part were McGregor, Stagwine and myself tried to capture the hill but had to fall back, it was a pretty intense firefight.
I don't know what went wrong when Alpha flanked the enemy. I have told Charlie three times to hold their position and keep the enemy occupied. As a matter of fact, Variable confirmed he heard the order on the other side of the island. Why Charlie didn't receive it, I have no idea. Alpha moved into a prefect flanking position, but because Charlie did not fire a single shot, all guns were pointing at us and we got killed.
Whatever was the reason, it has taught me a valuable lesseon. Never trust that someone understood you. Ask for confirmation. Even in a time-critical situation, I should have insisted on confirmation. But I didn't. This is partially because there is a general tendency to not confirm messages.
Operation Raven
Flares are hot. Don't step on them. Instant death for me. Arma really needs to tone down the fucking fire damage, I am quite sure that such a thing in reality would have a hard time killing me.
On the D-Fence
Somehow the survival change of an AA gun in Arma is pretty low. I blame this partially on the insane insta-flare skillz of the AI pilots. They never ever miss the a missile launch, there is no random element apparently and their reaction time is close to zero. It makes engaging air targets in Arma generally more difficult that it should
Ammo Run
I'm sorry but I honestly don't know what happened in that mission from Charlie's POV because the only thing we heard was Hold Position and nothing else. According to Phantom's Video the logs are something like this:
Den: "Alpha are you still up"
Alwarren:"Yeah we're up"
Den: "we can flank on the red line if you want Alwarren"
*Silence*
Den: "alpha are you stil up?"
Den: "outlawz is alwarren still up?"
Outlawz: "Yes"
Den: "let's move on the red line guys" "charlie is moving on the red line to flank the enemies"
Alwarren: "..HOLD POSITION!.."
*We were at the house so we stood there, no targets seen from the house so we didn't shoot at anything*
*We did not move on the red line, we waited at the house shortly before Alpha radioed for help and we moved to them via northen route they have taken*.
Even if Variable heard you across the map, it makes no difference if nobody from Charlie/Outlawz didn't because I'm sure somebody would've said something about it.
LR Is occasionally screwy, a lot of time it happends that I say something and it doesn't transmit or maybe you sent it in SR. I honestly don't know anything about it.
Den, I already said I don't know what happened. Since Outlawz was with you, you could have asked him to relay the information to me. In any case, as I said, I should have asked for confirmation, and in the future, I will want a confirmation for every order, by repeating the order. For example:
Alpha: "Charlie, hold put and put suppressive fire on the enemy while we flank"
Charlie: "Roger, holding position to suppress"
Otherwise things like that are bound to repeat themselves.
(11-30-2015, 12:44 PM)Alwarren link Wrote:As a matter of fact, Variable confirmed he heard the order on the other side of the island. Why Charlie didn't receive it, I have no idea.
I was mistaken or was not understood, all I heard was the "Hold position" order.
No doubt that TFAR is not 100% reliable (to be honest, that behavior is not that far from realistic). We need to stick to radio protocols that include confirming any order.
(11-30-2015, 03:51 PM)Variable link Wrote:I was mistaken or was not understood, all I heard was the "Hold position" order.
No doubt that TFAR is not 100% reliable (to be honest, that behavior is not that far from realistic). We need to stick to radio protocols that include confirming any order.
Yes I heard only "Hold Position" and thus remained at the house until you called for aid.
I agree about confirming orders although that tends to happen a lot of the time anyway.
I think you're being generous
at team leader level, I would call order confirmation "fair". Still work to be done but getting there with some focus.
Now within the teams... That's something else.
We had that discussion internally at the past. Personally, I'm ok with everybody in my team confirming the order. It gives me confidence that the people are concentrated and attentive. For that, I'm willing to pay the price of clutter. But even one or two replying is good enough, that way you are can be sure that your message came through.
I was in Alwarren's team for the infamous Ammo Run mission. I heard the orders, but imho crux of issue isn't he said-he said but how to improve. There can be lot of reasons. Accidental SR instead of LR, TS lag, alignment of Zeta Reticuli. I've often witnessed that part of the message is just cut off. I've been to tough missions under Den and Alwarren both and I have absolutely no hesitation to follow either gentleman to new improved disasters.
Mission itself was a stress test for the leaders blood pressure. I think Alwarren did very good job with a sound plan. Several teams scattered in map, vehicles to micromanage, night, no NVGs. Even in good conditions this would have been a tough one and now we had vehicle taken wrong turn, ambush, and lot of confusion. Alpha also had few stressing moments on the hillside.
Human nature is that when things starts to go wrong and there's confusion, people get more on edge and it is easier to assume than to get confirmation from a grumpy leader. This isn't related to this mission, but in general. That is also the moment when things easily starts to spiral to worse.
Confirming order, even with a single extra word, is often much better than simple 'copy'. For example: 'Copy, holding'. 'Copy, suppressing', tells that the target has gotten the general idea. I know it feels silly to talk to radio like Joe Pescis parrot imitating Generation Kill but it really helps especially in non-trivial communications.Â
(11-30-2015, 05:04 PM)Stagwine link Wrote:Confirming order, even with a single extra word, is often much better than simple 'copy'. For example: 'Copy, holding'. 'Copy, suppressing', tells that the target has gotten the general idea.
Exactly. Leaders please do that.
Also, IF you hear a cut off order, then ASK for a repeat. No need to guess what the order really was.