Comrades in Arms Discussion Board

One thing I noticed in the recent videos: we don't use enough smoke grenades when we start first aiding peolpe. That usually results in more casualties.

Yeah, we need to avoid jumping on bleeding guys and treat them without thinking ahead. Things to consider before starting to first aid -
1. Avoid first aiding if you are not a medic. Treat only if medic is occupied, killed or the bleeding unit is about to die.
2. Drag to cover before initiating the treatment. If that's not possible use smoke for concealment, if you don't have smoke, ask a comrade to pop one for you.


Also, see the Medics wounds and general medical SOP.

(06-07-2015, 05:25 PM)Alwarren link Wrote:Some things about Arma AI really annoy me:
- They do not see fucking laser beams with NVG's
- They notice you if you approach from behind, even if they are on Careless, and even if you are crawling.

While it IS possible to stay stealthy, it's more difficult that it should be, since the environment does not influence AI perception. Loud noises don't cover you, be it from vehicles or from e.g. the sea surf. The grouped AI always knows that someone is missing. There are some things that are downright mechanical that should not be like that.

I still lurk but felt the need to comment on this.
Now keep in mind I have not actually tested this via knowsabout scripting commands and the like however I can say that on more than one occaision I have been able to very steathily move very close to AI without them spotting me and in some instances I can eliminate members of an AI group and have the other remain unaware.

Heck in one situation just testing things in the editor I was able to set up the following scenario:
I was playing a ghillie suited soldier lying in a forest as an AI squad of 8 men walked past in SAFE mode at a distance of no more than 10m.  Once the last man passed I was able to eliminate him with a single shot of my silenced pistol.

In another scenario it was very early and foggy (this is in my CO-5 Cache Raid mission) and I was able to sneak up behind a two man patrol while wearing just standard AAF uniform and eliminate the rear man with one quick pistol headshot.

In both cases the remaining enemy were not aware of the death of their team mate.

(07-08-2015, 04:07 AM)Imperator link Wrote:In both cases the remaining enemy were not aware of the death of their team mate.

That's a relatively new development, because in the past, when you killed one member of the group the others were immediately aware of it.

They will eventually notice it, though, even today, but that is fine, they should be if they have radios.

However I feel that the hearing of the AI is too good, more so since it does not take environment into account.

(07-08-2015, 04:07 AM)Imperator link Wrote:I still lurk but felt the need to comment on this.
Now keep in mind I have not actually tested this via knowsabout scripting commands and the like however I can say that on more than one occaision I have been able to very steathily move very close to AI without them spotting me and in some instances I can eliminate members of an AI group and have the other remain unaware.

Heck in one situation just testing things in the editor I was able to set up the following scenario:
I was playing a ghillie suited soldier lying in a forest as an AI squad of 8 men walked past in SAFE mode at a distance of no more than 10m.  Once the last man passed I was able to eliminate him with a single shot of my silenced pistol.

In another scenario it was very early and foggy (this is in my CO-5 Cache Raid mission) and I was able to sneak up behind a two man patrol while wearing just standard AAF uniform and eliminate the rear man with one quick pistol headshot.

In both cases the remaining enemy were not aware of the death of their team mate.

Although my experience is different with the AI, Imperator might have a point.
We don't put a lot of effort to remain hidden and silent when trying to sneak on the AI, or penetrate its patrol screens. When was the last time we walked instead of run? When was the last time we crawled in an attempt to remain hidden? Truth be told, we rarely make serious efforts to evade AI detection.
Alwarren found out that there's a massive difference in the AI ability to detect between walking and running, for example. We need to really try to evade the AI before we rule out this possibility.

Maybe we can test it out. I have a mission for 2 player that emphasize that, but its a long one due to how sneaky you got to be (since you're most likely screwed if the alarm goes off). Zaros Conspiracy, though one player just sit and observe while the other guy sneaks in (I guess most people make me do the sneaking as nerve wrecking as it feels...)

If you don't mind me posting..I was just doing a stealth mission of my own and did some experimenting with AI

Issue usually is not so much if single AI detects you or not. It is what the mission maker does about it.  Usual solution is to use detectedBy trigger to cover some area. That trigger has very low knowsabout treshold to activate it, usually around 0.8 or so.

Problem is, even if you shoot someone to back of the head with a silenced pistol, knowsAbout jumps instantly to 1.35, even if it is dead. That is enough to activate detectedBy trigger, and scripted consequences. (Edit: I am getting mixed results with this one. It might be possible to eliminate single NON GROUPED AI without getting detection, if headshot is perfect.)

Usually biggest issue is AI hearing. It can hear silenced shots, especially rifleshots 35-40m away. SMGs and pistols have a bit lower range.

Crawling can be usually heard from 12m away, walking crouched 23-30m away. There might be SMALL difference whether it is gravel (like road) or grass (forest).

AI of same group knows instantly when group member is killed (KN = 4), regardless of the group members distance or location (even if it is patrolling several meters behind others backs). Other AI groups does not know about it, unless they have other information (visual contact, or hearing range).

Usually in mission biggest issue is use of detectedBy triggers. I use it myself too due its simplicity, but it really doesnt work as it is "intended" imho.

I made a simple test mission. I see if I can attach it.

Edit: Attachment+some observations.

Maybe we should bump this thread on stealth for stealth based things, but I'm interested again. I like stealthy things (even if it sometimes make my heart skip a beat from trying not to sound an alarm) http://ciahome.net/forum/mission-making/...theory/15/

(07-08-2015, 08:00 PM)Stagwine link Wrote:Usually biggest issue is AI hearing. It can hear silenced shots, especially rifleshots 35-40m away. SMGs and pistols have a bit lower range.

Well that is still okay with me. Silenced rifles and even pistols are usually quite loud still. The ones with integrated silencers (VSS, MP4 SD, Honey Badger) are usually the most quiet ones and even there you can still hear the action.

Quote:Crawling can be usually heard from 12m away, walking crouched 23-30m away. There might be SMALL difference whether it is gravel (like road) or grass (forest).

Yeah, that's my observation as well. Even running crouched is usually as undetectable as walking upright. AI Hears too well IMO, as I said, since there is no environmental noise taken into account (rain, sea surf, engines, wind in the trees etc...)

I'm curious, if you crawl and the AI hears you even though you aren't even that close, would that trigger the knowsAbout and raise the alarm?

Yes and no. If you crawl close, KN usually hits 0.3-0.5x and AI starts searching you. It may or may not trigger the 'detectedBy' trigger treshold (limit is somewhere between 0.5x-0.8). With luck, you can get away with it. Eventually KN begins to drop.

I posted more detailed results to mentioned stealth theory thread.

CSAR Jolly Green (Alwarren's lead)
Nice run. Watching Gwyn's video, and after reading the Blastcore thread it's obvious that BC's smoke are broken. The bloom is too small and not affected by wind. I suggest everyone who uses BC to remove the smoke pbo. I wouldn't expect a fix anytime soon.

Chokepoint
I liked the concept of evading enemy forces and relying on air support to take out key enemy positions on the way to friendly lines. I died pretty early but spectating afterwards revealed that sometimes we move way too slow. One of the bad tendencies is to focus on your next shot, and on killing the next enemy when the smart thing to do is haul ass and get the hell out. We need to remember that maneuvering keeps you safer more than killing the enemy, especially if the premise of the mission is evading and extracting safely.

CSAT Frenzy
Loved every second of it. Good job all teams on a well-executed mission. The fact that our support element at the form of three (!) Ifrits was hit hard proves that we overcame strong opposition. Bravo's and Charlie's distraction allowed Alpha to sneak in right into the base. The first shots we took were on a formation of NATO soldiers inside the base. I had a lot of trouble understanding what's up with Charlie at some points. I think I received a message that all the Ifrits were disabled but later on I saw one Ifrit moving so that left me a bit confused. Someone from Charlie team please share how the mission unfolded for your team.

PMC Versus Operation Adversi Reges
That's a tough nut to crack, as should expect from the final mission of a 24 episode campaign. Our first attack on the town was textbook stuff. We swept through in something like 7 minutes, starting from the first shot I took on the road patrol. Good job on that guys. I was later too reckless and was shot in the nose while attacking the communication tower. That attack in a whole was rushed as I wanted to keep advancing before the priest runs away. I wasn't able to spectate. Can someone that had situational awareness of all teams share how did it go?

Glass Jaw
I flew A10 CAS on that one. I had only two guided missiles that were intended for the two AAA Shilkas units. Valhallan warned me that there are more radar targets so I couldn't just fire on any lock I had on my scope. To limit the chances of wasting a missile on a different target, I positioned myself in a way that put both Shilka's on the same bearing and moved towards the first. That way, most of the chances were that any target at 12 Oc’ was probably a Shilka. Taking my chances, I fired at the two targets that were detected in front of me, beyond visual range, and was relieved to see the AA task accomplished. Later on I hit two friendlies on a strafing run, proving the rule that the most successful attack runs are on friendlies That was a result of a miscommunication with the ground team that could have been mitigated had I switched to channel 1 on my short-range earlier. A lesson to learn.

Operation Buzzard
That was an awesome mission! Suspenseful and well made. Great job everybody on being quick on the trigger and responding quickly and precisely to my commands. Looking back, I should have ordered to open fire on the patrolling AAF around the hangars when Alias silently placed his explosives on the first Buzzard. I think I heard someone says he hears the patrol talking. Maybe it was the late hour, but I mistakenly registered that as being detected so I ordered to open fire. Luckily, we've found a PCML launcher that allowed us to kill the QRF Strider HMG and beat the infantry that was caught in the open on the runway.

Good games, thanks everyone for joining.

(07-19-2015, 10:12 AM)Variable link Wrote:I suggest everyone who uses BC to remove the smoke pbo. I wouldn't expect a fix anytime soon.

I am no longer using Blastcore, it just messes up too much and OS has a tendency to not fix these issues.

Quote:Can someone that had situational awareness of all teams share how did it go?

Not much to add here. Things went a bit belly-up with communication and leadership since our leader was in the tank, and that rarely goes well.

Somehow we all managed to fall through the cracks on the tower.

Quote:That was a result of a miscommunication with the ground team that could have been mitigated had I switched to channel 1 on my short-range earlier. A lesson to learn.

Yeah, my bad. I thought I had been clear that only half of our team was near the compound. The fact that current smoke grenades for RHS are called "RGO Grenade" didn't help, since I didn't dare to drop smoke at our position.

I also didn't have trace ammo as the team leader, so I couldn't use it to mark targets.

Quote:Maybe it was the late hour, but I mistakenly registered that as being detected so I ordered to open fire. Luckily, we've found a PCML launcher that allowed us to kill the QRF Strider HMG and beat the infantry that was caught in the open on the runway.

When I spotted the patrol they hadn't noticed us. My report was a bit too vague, I should have mentioned that because in the situation I would not have wanted to attack them and instead leave them, but from my report you must have gathered that they spotted us. Ideally we would have tried to drop them at once and maybe avoided detection there.

When Stagwine and me were in the hangar, a troop transport dropped off a shitload of reinforcements right in front of us, and that was a damn tough fight. However, we managed to pick off most of them and the explosion of the strider took out a number too, but that was one of these moments when I wasn't going to bet on my survival anymore. Luckily it went well.

(I thought this mission was one of the best that day, exactly how I like my specops shit )

(07-19-2015, 10:12 AM)Variable link Wrote:CSAT Frenzy I had a lot of trouble understanding what's up with Charlie at some points. I think I received a message that all the Ifrits were disabled but later on I saw one Ifrit moving so that left me a bit confused. Someone from Charlie team please share how the mission unfolded for your team.

I was under the impression that Charlie was just Phantom and myself and that we just had the two Ifrits we took. Unfortunately Phantom's one got hit by an RPG almost as soon as we reached the crossroads, so I picked him up and he manned the gun whilst I drove. He spotted quite a few targets to the S/SE and did a good job of thinning them out but then we took another RPG which destroyed my Ifrit and left us bleeding (I saw some explosions/flashes on a far mountainside just before, so we may have come under fire from there). Alias' team came to our rescue and Phantom and I moved on foot to the Charlie marker as ordered and then got picked up by Alias' Ifrit and driven to the Exfil. As far as we all knew, he was attached to Bravo, so maybe an order got missed somewhere.

(07-19-2015, 10:35 AM)Alwarren link Wrote:Not much to add here. Things went a bit belly-up with communication and leadership since our leader was in the tank, and that rarely goes well.

Somehow we all managed to fall through the cracks on the tower.

I was gunner in the tank and whilst I managed to shoot a couple of enemies on the roof by the radio tower and on the ground, a lot of the time we were too close and I couldn't angle the gun down to shoot them, so the driver ran them over. I shot the two shells I had at the helo but they didn't do much, so we rammed it to disable it. The tank had very limited ammo overall and I soon ran out of everything but I think it was just about enough, as you have to give the rest of the team the chance to shoot something. At least the now-weaponless tank came in handy as cover when we dismounted at the ruins as there were a couple of pesky guys lying down and shooting at us!

I managed to run across the gap into the tower but ended up blowing myself up with a grenade that bounced back when I tried to throw it up the stairs to take out the enemy who had shot me. It turned out he wasn't even there and was in fact on the top of the tower, glitching and shooting through the stone floor he was lying on.

I can't recall who survived but they must have worked out where the priest was hiding as they drove there, stopping to see if they could use a friendly tank that was sitting nearby first but it was occupied. Unfortunately the priest was heavily defended and our guys got slaughtered attempting a frontal assault but they took out a few enemies first.