Comrades in Arms Discussion Board

Then the scout is killed instead of anyone else in the team. I don't see how this would help

He moves forward with the purpose of not engaging the enemy and staying undetected to acquire intel. Sort of like a invisible agent that goes forward first. For example the scout could move to a point not along the route(thus assuring his safety) and spot from afar.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_reconnaissance

(06-06-2015, 05:00 PM)Watchmen link Wrote:He moves forward with the purpose of not engaging the enemy and staying undetected to acquire intel. Sort of like a invisible agent that goes forward first. For example the scout could move to a point not along the route(thus assuring his safety) and spot from afar.

This doesn't make much sense to me.

The question is, what difference does it make? It isn't like if the team leader goes to scout he goes in with blazing guns. If I had been the team leader and had send Variable forward to scout, the same would have happened. But like Variable, I would rather endanger myself than anyone from my team. Not my style.

Tactically, watchmen is right. As evidence in most western armies, the pointman is not the leader. The advantage is that if the pointman is harder to detect because he is moving alone, and because of the distance between him and the team, he can move slower and more cautiously, limiting the chances of getting spotted. Something that a full team cannot do efficiently.  However, I was educated on the braces of the IDF, which has the leader in point. And that caused a lot of Israeli future leaders lose their life, especially in the fifties. I'll dig out the link later. Although wise, sending a scout goes against all my instincts

Edit: Also, when the leader is dead them oracle impact is different over the (non virtual) group.

(06-06-2015, 05:43 PM)Variable link Wrote:Tactically, watchmen is right. As evidence in most western armies, the pointman is not the leader. The advantage is that if the pointman is harder to detect because he is moving alone, and because of the distance between him and the team, he can move slower and more cautiously, limiting the chances of getting spotted. Something that a full team cannot do efficiently.  However, I was educated on the braces of the IDF, which has the leader in point. And that caused a lot of Israeli future leaders lose their life, especially in the fifties. I'll dig out the link later. Although wise, sending a scout goes against all my instincts

Edit: Also, when the leader is dead them oracle impact is different over the (non virtual) group.

That isn't exactly the way that Arma works. Spotting is always the same, only things like Launchers will affect camo AFAIK. So in any case, anyone being the pointman in this case would have fared the same. Since there isn't a specific pointman role with better camo or a ghillie suit, the result is the same, you get spotted, you get shot at.

So in this case, the death could not have been avoided by sending someone else. It's just that someone else would be dead instead of the leader, which doesn't change the outcome.

(06-06-2015, 06:57 PM)Alwarren link Wrote:That isn't exactly the way that Arma works. Spotting is always the same, only things like Launchers will affect camo AFAIK. So in any case, anyone being the pointman in this case would have fared the same. Since there isn't a specific pointman role with better camo or a ghillie suit, the result is the same, you get spotted, you get shot at.

No, because even in Arma, if the whole team moves in, say, a wedge formation, there are more units candidate to be spotted than when only one is moving towards the enemy ahead of the team. The enemy is not always directly at the front of the point of the wedge, so other units than the leader might be detected when moving forward as a whole team. Plus, even when the point-man is detected, the rest of the team isn't, and that' an advantage you don't get when the leader just moves forward with the whole team. I actually do that myself sometimes, as the leader. Order the team to stay back while I move forward, sometimes with a marksman, to scout the enemy positions ahead before moving the whole team forward.

Sending scout units doesn't make much sense in small unit tactics, which is what we typically use in Arma. However tactically speaking I would prefer for the leader not to be the pointman, but for practical communication its probably better ingame.

(06-06-2015, 05:43 PM)Variable link Wrote:Tactically, watchmen is right.

Of course, but in Arma, this method doesn't work, simple as that. You can not really remain undetected since the damn AI will always see you one way or another.

On the flipside, it's possible to hide a full platoon in Arma just as easily as hiding a single unit :|

(06-06-2015, 11:09 PM)Varanon link Wrote:Of course, but in Arma, this method doesn't work, simple as that. You can not really remain undetected since the damn AI will always see you one way or another.

Even if what you claim is true (and I don't agree, see my previous post), you still get the advantage of keeping the team concealed when the pointman is detected. Even in Arma, it's tactically better to use a pointman.

Without adding to the point man discussion, I just have to say, remaining undetected is definitely possible, and especially advantageous in arma.
When I played missions with my brother, this is basically how we always played, (since it's only 2 of us, it's always easier not to take on all the enemies by ourselves).
Avoid patrols until you get to the target area, set up in a good position undetected, and take advantage of the surprise factor.
Exactly like in this short video with Llauma: -

(06-07-2015, 09:30 AM)Variable link Wrote:Even if what you claim is true (and I don't agree, see my previous post), you still get the advantage of keeping the team concealed when the pointman is detected. Even in Arma, it's tactically better to use a pointman.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were on point and the rest of the team was behind, not close to you but behind a couple of rocks. I agree that a pointman is a good idea, but in this case, you *were* the pointman, and were detected.

(06-07-2015, 03:35 PM)Alwarren link Wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were on point and the rest of the team was behind, not close to you but behind a couple of rocks. I agree that a pointman is a good idea, but in this case, you *were* the pointman, and were detected.

Had I been a real pointman and not the group leader, I would have moved differently. For example, a single guy moves more freely to the sides because he doesn't need to take into account the whole formation that has to adjust to him, and therefore able to choose the more concealed approach. A rock can conceal one guy, but not a whole formation. I can go on giving countless examples how a single guy (in Arma) can move in a stealthier way if he doesn't have the burden a full formation. Bottom line, when you are leading a team you CANNOT be a pointman, and that affects the chances of getting detected.

Regarding staying stealth in Arma - It's not perfect but it is very well possible. I agree with Gwyn on that. By the way, nice videos, nice memories

(06-07-2015, 03:51 PM)Variable link Wrote:Regarding staying stealth in Arma - It's not perfect but it is very well possible. I agree with Gwyn on that. By the way, nice videos, nice memories

Some things about Arma AI really annoy me:
- They do not see fucking laser beams with NVG's
- They notice you if you approach from behind, even if they are on Careless, and even if you are crawling.

While it IS possible to stay stealthy, it's more difficult that it should be, since the environment does not influence AI perception. Loud noises don't cover you, be it from vehicles or from e.g. the sea surf. The grouped AI always knows that someone is missing. There are some things that are downright mechanical that should not be like that.

(06-07-2015, 05:25 PM)Alwarren link Wrote:Some things about Arma AI really annoy me:
- They do not see fucking laser beams with NVG's
- They notice you if you approach from behind, even if they are on Careless, and even if you are crawling.

+ they see without NVG in pitch pblack darknesseven though they are the ones skylining

Im not sure about that. In my mission Yellowcake, I snuck into the base through the front door undetected at night because they had no NVGs.